i can't believe the idea of walking would come to her mind at her age. i won't repeat this. oh, no, don't do that again. james waterhouse, bbc news, kyiv. time for a look at the weather. here's tomasz schafernaker. some dramatic weather heading this way?

on ucla campus, violent action and vicious words as pro—palestinian protestors and pro—israeli counter protestors clash over gaza. is this turmoil partly a result ofjoe biden�*s failure to grip the middle east crisis? mark's live at a washington protest. we'll bejoined by a columbia university student from the national jewish on campus student union,

and a leader of the palestine solidarity protest at indiana university. and the man who for two decades advised successive us secretaries of state on the arab—israeli conflict. also tonight: huge protests and tear gas on the streets of the georgian capital tbilisi against russian—inspired law. we'rejoined live by the georgian president. also tonight: is ireland right to fear an influx of aslyum seekers across the irish border as a result of the uk's new rwanda policy? we'll be speaking to the fianna fail chair of ireland'sjoint committee on justice. and as the 14—year—old who was fatally stabbed in an attack with a sword is named as daniel anjorin, a solicitor who sees the impact of knife crime daily shows us how easy it is to purchase knives on the internet. we will be coming to the georgian president very soon, but first, good

evening. universities across the us are embroiled in campus protests and occupations over israel's actions in gaza from california to pennsylvania. some protests have been peaceful, but there have been hundreds of arrests, vandalism and violent scenes both between different groups of protestors and armed police carrying tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets, as universities try to regain control. and president biden has condemned tragic and dangerous hate speech at some of the protests. markjoins us from washington. what has been happening today? well, this is one of dozens of protest camps across the country. this one in its sixth day. what's been going on is, many students across the us have taken the example of those at columbia in new york, and as you have said, it has gone right across the country. a few days ago, we were filming at arizona

state university in phoenix, talking to students there. that in an upcoming newsnight report. what has happened overnight, though, is the authorities in new york stormed the columbia university camp, arresting 300 students, and another place places too, university authorities have agreed to let the police in and ask them to clear some of their buildings. so there is a kind of ongoing battle of wills between the protesters across these campuses. do you get the sense the protesters are in any mood to give way? could receive further trouble? we are hearing about rubber bullets, tear gas, pepperspray. —— could hearing about rubber bullets, tear gas, pepper spray. —— could we see further trouble? one of the issues is, for example, on the ucla campus in california, counter protesters have been wading in and there has been violence, so there are a number of possible sources of violence here. obviously, there are clashes between some of there are clashes between some of the protesters and the police, and there are also incidents with the

counter protesters. by and large, in the couple of universities we have been to, it has been pretty there were pretty peaceful and even respect for, but i think that is the risk from president biden�*s point of view, that it looks like the situation, which could get out of control, where there could be violence, where the american flag could be disrespected, taken down, replaced by a palestinian one as it was in columbia overnight, the previous night. i guess that is a source of political risk for him. we are coming back to you later in the programme. thank you. are the campus riots evidence of a wider disaffection with us politics amongst the young ahead of the presidential election, fuelled in part what our next guest calls the biden administration's "passive aggressive" approach to benjamin netanyahu that predates the october 7th massacre? and given donald trump's avowed support for israel, has the world's superpower relinquished its role in the middle east? we'rejoined by columbia university studentjacob schmeltz, who is also co—vice president of the nationaljewish on campus student union, and by bryce greene,

one of the leaders of the palestine solidarity protest at indiana university. thank you both very much forjoining us. first of all, price, you are one of the leaders, as i said, of the pro—palestinian protest, and you were arrested. what happened to you? thank you for having me on, and i would like to first point out that this is primarily about the genocide in gaza, and not anything that happened to protesters. what happened to protesters. what happened to protesters. what happened to me with my arrest and my five year ban from the campus is nothing compared to the people of gaza, who don't have any universities to protest against, because with american support, israel destroyed them. just to focus on indiana, though, because what we are talking about first of all is what is happening across america. was there a violence, protest against protest are? did you see that, did you witness that? did the police have caused?

police have caused ? the police have caused? the only violence that happened at our university was the violence from the police on innocent, peaceful protesters. the police showed up with riot gear, armoured vehicles, military weaponry, assault rifles, shotguns, pepperspray, choppers shotguns, pepper spray, choppers flying shotguns, pepperspray, choppers flying overhead and a sniper on the roof, or because students decided to put up a tent in a park and protest against american genocide and the american support of the israeli genocide in gaza. does that make sense to anyone here? let's speak to another student. jacob, we saw extraordinary scenes at columbia too, and you are the leader in columbia of thejewish students, but what has been your experience on campus? thank you so much for having me on. it has _ thank you so much for having me on. it has been _ thank you so much for having me on. it has been incredibly stressful to be a jewish student at columbia at this particular moment. what we have witnessed _ this particular moment. what we have witnessed with demonstrations, chanting — witnessed with demonstrations, chanting slogans such as "we are hamas. _ chanting slogans such as "we are hamas. we — chanting slogans such as "we are hamas, we love hamas those quote, calls to _ hamas, we love hamas those quote, calls to burn— hamas, we love hamas those quote, calls to burn tel aviv to the ground, _ calls to burn tel aviv to the ground, whenjewish students

calls to burn tel aviv to the ground, when jewish students are simply— ground, when jewish students are simply trying to get across, get through— simply trying to get across, get through their days, who wear kippahs or star_ through their days, who wear kippahs or star of— through their days, who wear kippahs or star of david necklaces, which they— or star of david necklaces, which they are — or star of david necklaces, which they are identifiable as jewish or star of david necklaces, which they are identifiable asjewish in another— they are identifiable asjewish in another way. when they are called racial_ another way. when they are called racial slurs — another way. when they are called racial slurs or told to go back to poland — racial slurs or told to go back to poland or— racial slurs or told to go back to poland or go kill themselves i think this realty— poland or go kill themselves i think this really shows the climate of anti—semitism that has engulfed colombia — anti—semitism that has engulfed colombia and many universities across— colombia and many universities across the — colombia and many universities across the country. we _ across the country. we are _ across the country. we are going to play a couple of clips in a moment, but sticking with you for a moment, when you look around what is happening in columbia, it is what you say are these anti—semitic slurs. are they coming from a minority? what is the broad swathe of students at columbia's attitude to all this? in my experience, it has been indifference, really. unfortunately, among _ indifference, really. unfortunately, among my — indifference, really. unfortunately, among my non—jewish peers, we have not felt _ among my non—jewish peers, we have not felt a _ among my non—jewish peers, we have not felt a showing of solidarity, sunport — not felt a showing of solidarity, support and ally ship. of course, free speech is welcome, protected and necessary, and so our

conversations on the israeli—palestinian conflict, but unfortunately, this is not what we are seeing — unfortunately, this is not what we are seeing right now. instead, we see the _ are seeing right now. instead, we see the demonisation and targeting ofjewish_ see the demonisation and targeting ofjewish students. let's _ ofjewish students. let'sjust play a couple of clips let's just play a couple of clips now from columbia. here is the first one. help! there we go on the first one, and on the second one, it is about october the second one, it is about october the 7th. remember the 7th of october! never— remember the 7th of october! never forget the 7th of october! not one — never forget the 7th of october! not one more _ never forget the 7th of october! not one more time, _ never forget the 7th of october! not one more time, not- never forget the 7th of october! not one more time, not five - never forget the 7th of october! i not one more time, not five more times, _ not one more time, not five more times, not— not one more time, not five more times, not ten more times! well, of course, we do not hold you responsible for what we are hearing at columbia there. first, go back to poland, the inference being, go back to poland, go back to the concentration camps. the second one, october seven, ten october the 7ths,

20. we heard those chance there. but you are on record as calling what is happening at elite universities a kind of anti—semitism crisis. now that doesn't sound, what we heard there doesn't sound very fake to me. no, i wasn't able to hear the clips or see _ no, i wasn't able to hear the clips or see the — no, i wasn't able to hear the clips or see the clips that were presented, given the... but what i can say— presented, given the... but what i can say is— presented, given the... but what i can say is that you can criticise what _ can say is that you can criticise what some _ can say is that you can criticise what some 19—year—olds are screaming on a college _ what some 19—year—olds are screaming on a college campus or you can criticise — on a college campus or you can criticise the fact that american universities and america at large is supporting — universities and america at large is supporting the mass murder of thousands, tens of thousands of people — thousands, tens of thousands of people. one of those is one of the most _ people. one of those is one of the most critical geopolitical issues of our lifetime. we are watching an entire _ our lifetime. we are watching an entire nation of people wiped out. the other— entire nation of people wiped out. the other one, you are saying a few students _ the other one, you are saying a few students being uncomfortable. i think— students being uncomfortable. i think we — students being uncomfortable. i think we can decide which is more important — think we can decide which is more important to focus on. i certainly think what you are students, hearing anti—semitic slurs are something more than

uncomfortable, —— forjewish students. and universities are bastions of free speech, supposedly. but would you condemn any anti—semitic language in any university in america? oh, absolutely. anti—semitism is a 0h, absolutely. anti—semitism is a scourge _ 0h, absolutely. anti—semitism is a scourge on— 0h, absolutely. anti—semitism is a scourge on this world, and it's a shame _ scourge on this world, and it's a shame that _ scourge on this world, and it's a shame that the israeli state and the israeti _ shame that the israeli state and the israeli lobby in america utilise anti—semitism as a weapon against the people — anti—semitism as a weapon against the people who are actually fighting for palestinian rights. if you can tabet— for palestinian rights. if you can tabet any— for palestinian rights. if you can label any pro—palestinian speech as anti—semitic, well, then you are obviously— anti—semitic, well, then you are obviously trying to delegitimise a movement rather than engaging with the substance, which is the genocide that is— the substance, which is the genocide that is going on right now. let's talk now, jacob, about the difference between students' attitudes to what's happening to them personally and their attitudes to the israeli government. we have in benjamin netanyahu the most right—wing leader in many, many years. we know, as we are going on

to talk about, the idea that he says, you know, joe biden's approached all of this is kind of passive—aggressive. where do you think the big problem lies with the israeli government? what think the big problem lies with the israeli government?— think the big problem lies with the israeli government? what i will say is that there _ israeli government? what i will say is that there is _ israeli government? what i will say is that there is a _ israeli government? what i will say is that there is a difference - is that there is a difference between criticising the israeli government and taking out those criticisms and harassing jewish students. and myself and many otherjewish students at columbia are highly critical of the current israeli government and the state of the war, but that is never an excuse to go up to individualjewish students and to tell them to kill themselves or to tell them to kill themselves or to tell them to go back to poland. unfortunately, this is what we are seeing on campuses right now. what do you say to that, bryce? i have said that isolated incidents of students being rude to each other or racist— of students being rude to each other or racist to _ of students being rude to each other or racist to each other pales in comparison to the massive amount of death— comparison to the massive amount of death and _ comparison to the massive amount of death and destruction that is going on in _ death and destruction that is going on in gaza, — death and destruction that is going on in gaza, and any attempt to focus on in gaza, and any attempt to focus on the _ on in gaza, and any attempt to focus on the former rather than the latter is intellectually dishonest. there is intellectually dishonest. there is a genocide going on, thousands of

people _ is a genocide going on, thousands of people are _ is a genocide going on, thousands of people are dying, israel's deliberately using starvation as a weapon, — deliberately using starvation as a weapon, using biological pestilence as a weapon, trying to ensure people don't _ as a weapon, trying to ensure people don't have _ as a weapon, trying to ensure people don't have the necessary resources to feed _ don't have the necessary resources to feed themselves or heal themselves. that is nothing. ithink— themselves. that is nothing. i think people would certainly disagree on whether or not one delegitimise as the other. i would like to ask you both know as students, how do you think your universities have handled this crisis? sticking with you, bryce, first. as i said, the university has handled _ as i said, the university has handled this crisis in an insane way, _ handled this crisis in an insane way, by— handled this crisis in an insane way, by bringing out an army, effectively, with shoppers, again, snipers, _ effectively, with shoppers, again, snipers, drones in the sky, armoured vehictes, _ snipers, drones in the sky, armoured vehicles, assault rifles, shotguns, or because — vehicles, assault rifles, shotguns, or because students decided to put up or because students decided to put up a tent _ or because students decided to put up a tent in — or because students decided to put up a tent in a park. does this make sense _ up a tent in a park. does this make sense to _ up a tent in a park. does this make sense to anyone here? let — sense to anyone here? let me _ sense to anyone here? let me ask you, jacob, look what has happened at columbia. i think you are both now actually... i know you

are both now actually... i know you are banned from campus, bryce, but your classes are virtual now, jacob? you can't actually go back onto campus. so i wonder how you think columbia has handled this. no, so i think columbia has handled it very poorly. the university has not done enough to ensure the short—term and long—term safety of jewish students. of jewish students. of any students, perhaps, any students at all? absolutely. when our rabbi on campus, though, has to advise students to get off—campus because the situation is intolerable for jewish students, i think that really shows there is a larger overall problem. let me talk to both of you as well about the biden administration on how they have handled the middle east crisis. sticking with you, jacob, what do you think about how the biden administration is approaching gaza? i mean, look, ithink president biden is trying to do as best as he can. he is trying to increase humanitarian aid into gaza, and also, ensure that israel has the

right to defend itself against hamas and against iran, but that is not what i am here to talk about. i mean, i am ajewish what i am here to talk about. i mean, i am a jewish student, what i am here to talk about. i mean, i am ajewish student, i am not an expert on national security or in middle east politics. bryce greene, on the question of the biden administration and how they have handled this gimmick are the biden administration is one of our primary targets of criticism. since the beginning of this war, the biden station has provided israel with enormous amounts of military and political aide, orfor the and political aide, or for the purpose and political aide, orfor the purpose of ensuring that israel is able to carry out this mass slaughter in gaza with little consequences. you see that biden believes what he is doing is correct, so as far as i'm concerned, he is just as guilty as netanyahu. like you very much, both. —— thank you very much, both. now back to mark. something else happening here. is there a disaffection among students about general tenor of us politics just now.

yes the protests, muslims and arab americans have been at the core of them. people who feel a passionate attachment to gaza are angry about what's going on there. there is no doubt about that. but a lot of the others who are coming down don't have that connection. i mean talking to some, i didn't find them well informed about what was going on in the middle east. a lot are bringing a basket of i have of issues they care about. they sense the revolutionary potential of this moment and they want to be here. when you say, well, yes, but what does this mean in regard tojoe biden and the next election, they say obviously we are not going to vote for him. you say ok if that is replicated nationwide, doesn't that mean you could let in donald trump and then they basically theyjust

characterise them in terms of their age and colour and say, they're both the same. . ~ age and colour and say, they're both the same. . ,, i. , . age and colour and say, they're both the same. . ~ ,, , . ,, now to discuss this further, i'm joined by aaron david miller, an adviser on arab—israeli negotation to us secretaries of state for more than 15 years. thank you forjoining us. there is so much to unpack about how the students have been reacting. what did you make of their preoccupations were and what is happening? it is a were and what is happening? it is a complicated — were and what is happening? it is a complicated issue. _ were and what is happening? it is a complicated issue. at _ were and what is happening? it is a complicated issue. at 75, _ were and what is happening? it is a complicated issue. at 75, i - were and what is happening? it is a complicated issue. at 75, i don't i complicated issue. at 75, i don't pretend to understand it all and two 40—year—olds share different views on the biden policy in respect to israel. i think there is a lot of things. there is genuine disaffection and anger over the toll that the gaza war is exacting in israel's efforts to prosecute a war with hamas. there is a good deal of

intersectionality. you stand with all the causes, we stand together, whether it is racism, colonialism, i think there is, there clearly are darker views of dues of american dues by some of these students. i think they have conflated israeli policy with american dues, young american dues in holding them responsible for it. which i think is unfair. in the main, i wonder, you know, we were in iraq and afghanistan for 20 years, the two longest wars in american histories. americans were dying, they were killing scores of thousands of afghans and iraqis, you never saw this level of upset and you have never seen campuses since vietnam. i think by and large this will in fact

have an impact onjoe biden's politics and the 2024 elections. i doubt if it will affect the biden policy. doubt if it will affect the biden oli . ., . ~' doubt if it will affect the biden oli . ., .~ ., doubt if it will affect the biden oli . ., . ,, ., doubt if it will affect the biden oli . ., �* �*, policy. you talked of joe biden's a- roach policy. you talked of joe biden's approach to _ policy. you talked of joe biden's approach to binyamin _ policy. you talked of joe biden's| approach to binyamin netanyahu policy. you talked of joe biden's - approach to binyamin netanyahu and the biden administration has been passive addressive, what do you mean by that? taste passive addressive, what do you mean b that? ~ ., passive addressive, what do you mean b that? ~ . , ., by that? we are in the seventh month ofthe by that? we are in the seventh month of the war and — by that? we are in the seventh month of the war and the _ by that? we are in the seventh month of the war and the administration - of the war and the administration despite the levers it has available has failed to do so. i think there are several reasons for that. joe biden alone among american presidents has an emotional bond with the security of israel and the idea of israel. not so much with binyamin netanyahu. i think that the administration the president believes that the only way to change the pictures in gaza is to secure an

israeli/hamas agreement. hostages for a ceasefire. in which he can somehow build. i think to do that he has persuaded himself that he cannot afford an open and sustained breach with this israeli government, including notjust the israeli prime minister, but two other members of the war cabinet, benny gantz, he would succeed binyamin netanyahu if there was an election. those are the president's calculations. i think now the chances of an israeli/hamas agreement soon seem slim to none. it agreement soon seem slim to none. it is interesting, look how many time we have seen antony blinken go and make effort and almost be rebuffed and that will continue, you're saying, because we are in a situation where joe saying, because we are in a situation wherejoe biden, where he is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. at home he has a problem

with floating and young voters. he is not going to necessarily get them. it may be, we know that donald trump is behind israel. so the loser in this in terms of that vote could be biden? in in this in terms of that vote could be biden? . . .,, . ., in this in terms of that vote could be biden? . . . ., . be biden? in a close election, half a dozen states, _ be biden? in a close election, half a dozen states, under— be biden? in a close election, half a dozen states, under 100,000 i be biden? in a close election, half- a dozen states, under 100,000 votes, which decided the last one. the uncommitted, people who will not vote for biden will not vote for trump. i think that combined with third party candidates could cost the president his presidency. you advised for _ the president his presidency. you advised for 20 _ the president his presidency. you advised for 20 years and you know politics inside out, if you were advising joe biden what to do, you're shaking your head, what would you're shaking your head, what would you say to him?— you say to him? there is something i don't think we _ you say to him? there is something i don't think we fully _ you say to him? there is something i don't think we fully understand. - don't think we fully understand. that is from october 7th to now to our conversation at this moment, two

major combatants have shaped the strategy and they will determine the trajectory. the reality is as you knows well as i, the british experience in the middle east demonstrates it, this region is littered with great powers. i don't think the uncommitted voters would come back to joe think the uncommitted voters would come back tojoe biden. he has got to find a way to change the reality on the ground in gaza and he he has got to do it before both conventions are held. i’m got to do it before both conventions are held. �* . ~ . are held. i'm talking about domestically _ are held. i'm talking about domestically on _ are held. i'm talking about domestically on the - are held. i'm talking about - domestically on the campuses, now are held. i'm talking about _ domestically on the campuses, now in a sense he has lost, not necessary think majority in the campuses, but

they are not that engaged, is it a big, you say it is the beginning it could be a big moment for youth in america who feel disaffected by politics generally. yes america who feel disaffected by politics generally.— america who feel disaffected by politics generally. yes but how that is auoin to politics generally. yes but how that is going to be _ politics generally. yes but how that is going to be channelled. - politics generally. yes but how that is going to be channelled. protest i is going to be channelled. protest in the, the vietnam war ended in large parts because older americans lost faith in richard nixon and the war. but the demonstrations, which americans were dying, half a million americans were dying, half a million americans were dying, half a million americans were deployed. 150,000 were drafted. these students then, i was at the university of michigan at the time, had a personal stake in the time, had a personal stake in the war. i'm not sure what the specific agenda and set of aspirations that are that these students have. i agree there is a moment, but how it will be channelled politically in terms of

joe biden's future or the future of those protesters, who are demonstrating isjust those protesters, who are demonstrating is just not clear to me. you leave college, you end up with kids, student loans, mortgages, a set of responsibilities. colleges are hot houses and they can be positive hot houses that inspire and create civility. martin luther king among his principles of non—violence, you cannot demonise the enemy. you need to approach the enemy with friendship. i don't think thatis enemy with friendship. i don't think that is what we are seeing on these campuses and it is dismaying to me, because i do not understand thousands of miles away from the centre of conflict, why students, american, dues, american muslims, arabs, cannot simply find a way to acknowledge the pain, the suffering

and the trauma of one another. that is the case with these pro—palestinian demonstrators. it worries me greaty. pro-palestinian demonstrators. it worries me greaty.— the irishjustice minister helen mcentree has petitioned the irish cabinet to redesignate the uk as a safe country, after the high court in dublin ruled that ireland's designation of the uk as a safe place for returning asylum seekers was contrary to eu law in the light of the uk's rwanda policy. the fear among irish politicans is that they face a rise in asylum seekers acorss the irish border as asylum seekers try to avoid deportation to rwanda. here's ben. there is one thing rishi sunak and the irish pm simon harris do which is that the uk's policy of trying to send asylum seekers to rwanda is providing a

deterrent to people claiming protection in the uk. and dublin argues this hard line uk policy is pushing people to travel from the uk to the republic to claim asylum, with the irishjustice minister claiming last week that 80% of those seeking asylum in ireland are coming over the land border with northern ireland. there is no question the irish government is struggling to cope with housing asylum seekers. this morning the authority cleared the tents of some 200 homeless asylum seekers who had been camping out in the centre of dublin and moved the inhabitants to new temporary accommodation. but howjustified is the claim that the challenges facing dublin are a consequence of the uk's rwanda policy? let's start by looking at the official figures for the number of people claiming asylum in ireland. they only go up to february, when 1,569 claimed in that month. but reports suggest this pattern over the last two months of around 1,600 claiming in april. you can see a big rise over the past year. but the biggest rise in monthly applications actually came in late 2021 and that was before the rwanda

plan was announced in april 2022. and it is important to note that there was a large rise in asylum applications notjust in ireland in 2022, but right across europe. if you look at asylum applications adjusted for population in 2023, you can see here that ireland's experience was in line with the european average at 26 per 10,000. now there have been some suggestions that applications for asylum in ireland could rise significantly this year, to 20,000, up from 13,000 in 2023. let's be cautious about that, because it might not happen. but if it did, that would rise the asylum applications to around 39 per 10,000 people. yet that would still not be as high as the rate seen in some european countries such as cyprus, austria and greece in 2023. and what of that claim from dublin that 80% of those claiming asylum are coming across the northern ireland land border?

the basis for this figure is puzzling, because of course people can travel freely over that border, without monitoring. so how would one know? and the deputy irish pm micheal martin actually conceded to reporters this week that this was not a data—based figure. it seemed the number was based on the assumption from irish officials that if those making claims directly at the dublin international protection office had not also recently been recorded as entering the country by airport or sea ports, they must have come over the land border. but as some migration experts have pointed out, these migrants might still have arrived by those other routes and yet not applied for asylum immediately. now it is possible the uk's rwanda policy will act as a deterrent policy and also create spill over effects in ireland and perhaps other countries too, but the statistical evidence we have so far doesn't seem to support claims we are definitely seeing that. and it's vitally important to put both the irish and the uk asylum flows in a bigger context, namely a major number of asylum claims hitting

the whole continent of europe. ben, thank you. i'm joined now byjames lawless irish fianna foil politician who is chair of the justice committee of the parliament. good evening. our correspondent demonstrates a spike now in asylum seekers is being ramped up, it doesn't exist at the moment? well, there has been _ doesn't exist at the moment? well, there has been i _ doesn't exist at the moment? well, there has been i suppose _ doesn't exist at the moment? j! there has been i suppose pressure on migration in ireland and the uk and globally since the end of be pandemic. there has always been a challenge, but that i suppose there was a dam burst when the pandemic ended and people began to move again. that led to, combined with the ukraine war in europe, let to massive numbers come to ireland. there is no evidence that you are

facing a spike because asylum seekers could be deported to rwanda. it is important to deal with rwanda and separate that from the rest of what is going on. the rwanda is a factor. i don't think it is the major factor. factor. i don't think it is the majorfactor. there has been an increase in people seeking is asylum travelling to ireland. you increase in people seeking is asylum travelling to ireland.— travelling to ireland. you want to return asylum — travelling to ireland. you want to return asylum seekers _ travelling to ireland. you want to return asylum seekers to - travelling to ireland. you want to return asylum seekers to the - travelling to ireland. you want to | return asylum seekers to the uk, travelling to ireland. you want to - return asylum seekers to the uk, but you're supreme court says it is not safe, because of rwanda policy? 50. safe, because of rwanda policy? so, not uuite. safe, because of rwanda policy? 5p, not quite. what the irish court said was that the common travel agreement which has been in place since 1922. the returns agreement? trio. which has been in place since 1922. the returns agreement?— the returns agreement? no, the common travel— the returns agreement? no, the common travel agreement - the returns agreement? no, the common travel agreement that l the returns agreement? no, the i common travel agreement that was the returns agreement? no, the - common travel agreement that was put in in 1922. that lasted until ireland and the ukjoined in in 1922. that lasted until ireland and the uk joined the in in 1922. that lasted until

ireland and the ukjoined the eu and thenit ireland and the ukjoined the eu and then it became different. when britain exited the eu, ireland and the uk renegotiated that travel agreement. so we are different in terms of there is an ireland/uk relationship and connection and there is a uk/eu relationship and they're not the same thing. there is a danger in this conversation of oversimplifying matters. the suggestion that because france won't accept returns from the uk, that the ireland/uk relationship is called into question, i think doesn't follow. because they're separate things. ireland is not part of schengen zone and we have different rules about that. so in the same way because of common travel agreement, we have had a common approach to british and irish nationals.

let's be clear on one thing. my understanding is you want to be able to return people who come to ireland across the land border, by a large, from the uk, you want to return people to the uk even though you know that they could be deported to rwanda and that is not what your supreme court is saying? what the court said was that the way in which the framework was reconstituted post—brexit in november 2020 didn't pass muster in terms of the framework that was applied to it. so it was actually quite a technical ruling, they won't go into the details of its alternate, but effectively, they said rwanda may be a factor that could be... somebody was about to be deported from ireland to the uk, and there was a challenge in our courts, and our courts said actually, the framework with which you propose to deport them is not valid, because the way it was put in place is not valid, because of a set of tests in compliance with various laws. the rwanda factor was certainly

mentioned, but it wasn't actually the primary point the judge mentioned, but it wasn't actually the primary point thejudge ruled on, so the fact that somebody may be deported to rwanda, it's a third country scenario. at the moment, the uk is considered to be a safe country, and under legislation introduced to our cabinet yesterday, it would be redesignated, so effectively, putting the clock back to where it was before the high court ruling a month ago. so straightforwardly, you are comfortable sending asylum seekers back to the uk knowing that they could go to rwanda? i think the numbers going to rwanda, i think the numbers going to rwanda, i think the numbers going to rwanda, i think morejournalists i think the numbers going to rwanda, i think more journalists than actual migrants have gone there, from what i'm told so far. so i think the prospects of being deported are probably in inverse proportion is to winning the lotto. there is a lot more talk about the wonder then actually people ever going. so perhaps the concern might be a little mitigated from that point of view. thanks very much forjoining us. thanks very much forjoining us. thank you. today the 14—year—old boy who was knifed to death on his way to school yesterday in north east london

was named as daniel anjorin. he was killed and four other people injured by an attacker wielding a long bladed samurai sword — the like of which is available on the internet, without rigorous checks. on last night's programme, victoria spoke to pooja kanda, whose son ronan, 16, was killed with a sword injune 2022. i met the minister and explained what happened to ronan and how it happened, how these online weapons were available to the perpetrators so easily, and there were notjust one or two they bought, there were 25 plus. i explained it all to him, and he did not understand the severity of this kind of availability, and it's available, even the ninja sword that killed my son, is available today. it's still available? it's still available? it absolutely is available. in a moment, i'll be speaking to criminal solicitor

daryl ennis gayle, who sees the impact of knife crime almost daily, especially among teenagers, but earlier this evening, he explained just how easy it is for anyone to buy a lethal knife. well, most children these days, and thatis well, most children these days, and that is what you're talking about, have access to online accounts to the internet. it's as simple as using the internet on your phone, using the internet on your phone, using the internet on your phone, using the search engine, so if i show you on this website, this is an online marketplace website, effectively what we have searched for our weapons, effectively what we have searched for ourweapons, really, effectively what we have searched for our weapons, really, and self defence. ~ ., for our weapons, really, and self defence.- so you _ for our weapons, really, and self defence.- so you just - for our weapons, really, and self defence. marni. so you just put defence. wow. so you 'ust put something in h defence. wow. so you 'ust put something in like _ defence. wow. so you 'ust put something in like a h defence. wow. so you just put something in like a sword? - defence. wow. so you just put| something in like a sword? and defence. wow. so you just put - something in like a sword? and this comes pp? — something in like a sword? and this comes up? yes, samurai _ something in like a sword? and this comes up? yes, samurai swords, i something in like a sword? and this comes up? yes, samurai swords, a| comes up? yes, samurai swords, a varie of comes up? yes, samurai swords, a variety of what _ comes up? yes, samurai swords, a variety of what i — comes up? yes, samurai swords, a variety of what i would _ comes up? yes, samurai swords, a variety of what i would term - variety of what i would term decorative and ornamental, but clearly illegal. find decorative and ornamental, but clearly illegal.— decorative and ornamental, but i clearly illegal._ that clearly illegal. and so cheap! that is another worrying _ clearly illegal. and so cheap! that is another worrying thing, - clearly illegal. and so cheap! thatl is another worrying thing, the price at which these can be bought. most children have access to that sort of funding. children have access to that sort of fundinu. , . , , ., funding. give me a sense of the ranue funding. give me a sense of the ranae of funding. give me a sense of the range of knives _ funding. give me a sense of the range of knives that _ funding. give me a sense of the range of knives that kids - funding. give me a sense of the range of knives that kids can - funding. give me a sense of the | range of knives that kids can get hold of? ., .. , , , . .

hold of? you can buy things that are as simle hold of? you can buy things that are as simple as — hold of? you can buy things that are as simple as a _ hold of? you can buy things that are as simple as a rambo _ hold of? you can buy things that are as simple as a rambo knife. - hold of? you can buy things that are as simple as a rambo knife. wow! l as simple as a rambo knife. wow! what comes _ as simple as a rambo knife. wow! what comes appear, _ as simple as a rambo knife. wow! what comes appear, these are - as simple as a rambo knife. wow! what comes appear, these are things that people typically call these days zombie knives, and obviously, there is no legitimate reason for having an item such as that. this is £8 82 p. yes, extremely chea -. this is £8 82 p. yes, extremely cheap- there — this is £8 82 p. yes, extremely cheap. there is _ this is £8 82 p. yes, extremely cheap. there is no _ this is £8 82 p. yes, extremely cheap. there is no other - this is £8 82 p. yes, extremely| cheap. there is no other reason this is £8 82 p. yes, extremely - cheap. there is no other reason that someone would have one of these items on the streets, other than to cause harm. 50 items on the streets, other than to cause harm-— cause harm. so they are carrying blades inside _ cause harm. so they are carrying blades inside socks, _ cause harm. so they are carrying blades inside socks, inside - blades inside socks, inside trousers. blades inside socks, inside trousers-— blades inside socks, inside trousers. , ,. , trousers. inside their school bags. but if ou trousers. inside their school bags. but if you try _ trousers. inside their school bags. but if you try and _ trousers. inside their school bags. but if you try and buy _ trousers. inside their school bags. but if you try and buy one - trousers. inside their school bags. but if you try and buy one of - trousers. inside their school bags. j but if you try and buy one of these things, do you have to have any id? anyone can open an account on this website, on this marketplace website. they do ask for your age, but they don't check your age, so you don't have to give a driving licence or any form of id, so anyone can effectively buy one. but further, you canjust buy can effectively buy one. but further, you can just buy one as a guest, and theyjust ask for bank details or and online shopping

account, so you can easily get these items. what happens in delivery, though? where do they get them delivered to? the agents who deliver these items are told to check age on delivery, but they seldom do this, and they are agents anyway, so they are not obliged to do that, but half a time, they don't even know what is in the package. they are not marked, they are not identified, so they are just handing over to whoever purchases the item. joining me now in the studio is daryl, a partner in the criminal division of law firm hodgejones & allen, who has also been a victim of a stabbing himself. just coming back there, we saw you taking us through the technicalities. tell us more about the causes, because euro is almost like a blog, a diary, or every day of the week, changing the names, and from one day to the next, use or a young boy at court, and that evening... young boy at court, and that evening- - -— young boy at court, and that evenina... , ., ., ,., evening... yes, i wrote a series of blocs, evening... yes, i wrote a series of blogs. really. _ evening... yes, i wrote a series of blogs, really, detailing _ evening... yes, i wrote a series of blogs, really, detailing a - evening. .. yes, i wrote a series of blogs, really, detailing a week- evening... yes, i wrote a series of blogs, really, detailing a week in i blogs, really, detailing a week in my life as a solicitor working with

youths dealing with violent crime. it has to be said, it was an out of the ordinary week, but a week of my life nevertheless which started from representing a youth in a courtroom who was charged with possession of an offensive weapon, a knife. that boy received a community sentence, and later that evening, he was murdered himself. he and later that evening, he was murdered himself.— and later that evening, he was murdered himself. he said that he carried it for _ murdered himself. he said that he carried it for protection, _ murdered himself. he said that he carried it for protection, which - murdered himself. he said that he carried it for protection, which is l carried it for protection, which is no defence in the law, but you hear that a lot, don't you?— that a lot, don't you? yes, you do, and that's— that a lot, don't you? yes, you do, and that's the _ that a lot, don't you? yes, you do, and that's the phrase _ that a lot, don't you? yes, you do, and that's the phrase is _ that a lot, don't you? yes, you do, and that's the phrase is always - and that's the phrase is always coined, it seems, by the youths that i deal with, coined, it seems, by the youths that ideal with, and it has to be said, ideal with, and it has to be said, i do believe them to an extent, because i believe they carry them often with fear that with fear of being attacked. but they carry them at the school gates. presumably they carry them into school, because they can't get rid of them before they get into school? in my blog, i talk about another boy who was found with a knife in his school bag, and he was arrested and charged with possession of a knife as well. but you also detail the range of emotions from parents and guardians and friends, and a lot of it is

pretty terrible, it's heartbreaking. because, you know, use a second time and you are injail, and that their school career over. it is something you have to carry with you throughout your life if you receive a prison sentence or something like that. it makes your prospect in the future very difficult. but is that threat enough to stop them? the argument is in relation to what you can do to prevent knife crime, and they are well rehearsed. people talk about longer sentences, about increased stop and search powers. our firm increased stop and search powers. ourfirm has increased stop and search powers. our firm has a increased stop and search powers. ourfirm has a very increased stop and search powers. our firm has a very vibrant youth defence department, dealing with youth crime, we try to approach it in a holistic way as well and look at the root causes.— at the root causes. what do you think the root _ at the root causes. what do you think the root causes _ at the root causes. what do you think the root causes are? - at the root causes. what do you think the root causes are? as i at the root causes. what do you think the root causes are? as it| at the root causes. what do you i think the root causes are? as it is it? i think there are a variety of causes. you can look at economic of

funding in youth clubs, the lack of activity for the youths, lack of activity for the youths, lack of activity for the youths, lack of activity for the youths, like a positive role models. i mean, there are loads of factors.— are loads of factors. but they must think their lives _ are loads of factors. but they must think their lives are _ are loads of factors. but they must think their lives are cheap - are loads of factors. but they must think their lives are cheap and - think their lives are cheap and other people's lives are cheap. or maybe they think they will never use it. i maybe they think they will never use it. ~' maybe they think they will never use it. ~ , ., maybe they think they will never use it. i think when you speak to most of these youths, _ it. i think when you speak to most of these youths, they _ it. i think when you speak to most of these youths, they always - it. i think when you speak to most of these youths, they always will i of these youths, they always will say it's for protection, and i wouldn't use it, or i would only use it if i have to, that's what they often say. but it's a situation that you can't prevent, and i think there are studies that say when someone is armed with a weapon, they feel more empowered, so there is a likelihood once carrying a weapon that it will be used. and you showed me how easy it is to get the most horrific weapons, but you were stabbed as well? when i was a young man, i was stabbed. i grew up in the inner city of london, and i have to say, knife crime is not alien. it's not a new trend. i think what is different these days is the type of weapons that the children are carrying. the weapons that we've seen that we've

just shown you. these are designed